Y U NO SPORTS CAR?!?!

"mcseanerson" (mcseanerson) 06/03/2015 at 18:10 • Filed to: None

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Reading the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on the front page got me looking at another !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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I started reading how people were making there various arguments of what is and what is not a sports car. Personally I think it’s a car that doesn’t need a giant motor to go fast, something that can just carry itself through a corner without having to make up for it on the straights.

That said a lot of people’s requirements were that a sports car had to be rwd and automatically disqualified all fwd cars. I can’t believe we would automatically say anything fwd can not be a sports car when we have these fine examples.

But seriously, all the rest of those are true sports cars. If you start counting hot hatches, which should start with the original Golf GTI if we do, then the list just gets huge. The problem we have is so many people associate fwd with tons of understeer and no fun when in reality there are plenty of fun light fwd cars with great handling characteristics.

GhostZ > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:12

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A sports car is defined by what it is expected to be used for, not what it is built out of .

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:13

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RWD, yo!

mcseanerson > GhostZ 06/03/2015 at 18:14

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That’s definitely a good answer.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:15

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I don’t think that a car that has to be modified to be good is a sports car. A sports car has to be designed with driving dynamics and (to a lesser extent) looks in mind. In the case of GTIs and hot hatches, throwing a turbo and stiffer suspension on a grocery getter will get you a good quick car, but it’s not a sports car. I totally agree that a sports car can be FWD. I wouldn’t consider the CRX one, though. Sporty, yes. Sports car, no.

mcseanerson > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 06/03/2015 at 18:15

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I should’ve known better. The alternative in my mind I was thinking of was the Chevy Lumina. Maybe one with a bunch of NASCAR stickers on it.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:16

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Pontiac Sunfire?

mcseanerson > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 06/03/2015 at 18:16

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Yeah, the CRX was pushing it as it is a hatch. But hey, it is a two seater!

Gamecat235 > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:17

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I remember that day... very well.

mcseanerson > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 06/03/2015 at 18:17

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I wanted to be really really absurd with the one I posted and the sunfire is not absurd enough. Maybe a Bonneville.

mcseanerson > Gamecat235 06/03/2015 at 18:20

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Yeah, me too.

RedPir8Roberts > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:27

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1966 Oldsomobile Toronado.

RedPir8Roberts > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:34

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I was watching a Fulvia racecar in a vintage event at Sonoma Raceway last weekend, it sounded amazing. Mazda MX-6, Ford Probe (hate the name, not the pretty decent sports car—it won the Car & Driver comparison test this picture is from)), VW Corrado and Talon/Eclipse want to play too. I drove a couple of MX-6s, on the street they were a blast to drive.

rb1971 ARGQF+CayenneTurbo+E9+328GTS+R90S > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:38

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Hey! I never knew the Fulvia was FWD. In fact, I’ve never even been in a Lancia as far as I know. Just got back from France and almost rented a Fulvia while I was there, so I probably would have figured it out.

duurtlang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 06/03/2015 at 18:47

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To be fair, it’s an Opel Kadett. The car the LeMans was a poor clone off.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:50

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You forgot the SVT Focus.

And I disagree that a sportscar MUST be RWD. True, most of the greats are, but to automatically dissociate anything FWD isn’t very Jalop.

Gamecat235 > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/03/2015 at 18:58

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The one thing I have had drilled home after half a decade on Jalop / Oppo is that there is no definition for the following terms that everyone can agree on.

Sports Car
Supercar
Hypercar

However it is a lot easier to define a GT. But then defining if a GT then fits into one of the above categories will offend someone .

Rainbow > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 18:58

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Definitely just an economy car. Not a sports car.

mcseanerson > Gamecat235 06/03/2015 at 19:09

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Very true.

mcseanerson > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/03/2015 at 19:10

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Well if I included the Focus SVT then I would have had to include the Fiesta ST right off the bat.

mcseanerson > rb1971 ARGQF+CayenneTurbo+E9+328GTS+R90S 06/03/2015 at 19:12

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I don’t know, the Fulvia is supposed to be very neutral and willing to rotate which would throw a lot of people expecting beige fwd.

Milky > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 19:37

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The Fulvia and Elan are borderline, the rest of those are not sports cars. I don’t discredit all FWD cars but a hot version of a boring car definitely does not count.

Milky > RedPir8Roberts 06/03/2015 at 19:39

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I think you mean “sporty” cars.

Milky > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/03/2015 at 19:40

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Sweet hot hatch bro … must be “sporty”.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Milky 06/03/2015 at 19:48

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Uh, yeah, it is.

Have you ever driven an SVT Focus, or are you just one of those condescending asshats who just has to piss on everyone’s fun?

Rule #1 dude.

Milky > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/03/2015 at 20:00

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Not pissing anywhere, simply stating sporty =/= sports car.

Pretty sure the SVT Focus is the definition of a hot hatch.

Axial > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 20:01

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Is it developed on a platform shared with basic transportation and grocery-getter models? Not a sports car.

It has nothing to do with engine size or which wheels are driven; choices made in both of those categories are means toward building a sports car and there is no universally right choice. However, if your sporty car shares its underpinnings with something decidedly not sporty, it’s not a sports car.

A WRX, is not a sports car. The GTI and Golf R are not sports cars. The Mustang is not a Sports car because it’s a Focus under the skin. The new Camaro is not a Sports Car because it’s a CTS under its skin. The Corvette? That’s a sports car, because it was designed from the ground up to be an enthusiast driving machine with no provisions for using its underpinnings in any sort of classical “basic transportation” model.

mcseanerson > Milky 06/03/2015 at 20:02

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I think I mostly agree with this most of the time. Mostly.

Gamecat235 > Axial 06/03/2015 at 20:24

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The Mustang is a Focus? I’ve never heard that before. It’s a separate platform entirely.

And the Camaro and CTS don’t share a platform either, last I checked.

I understand the strange argument against the WRX and Evo, other than the fact that this argument means that no modern rally cars can be sports cars, even if, by the definition of “sport” they are, in point of fact, sporting cars.

mcseanerson > Gamecat235 06/03/2015 at 20:37

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The ‘16 Camaro is based on Alpha which was originally developed for the ATS and the CTS. That said the Cadillacs were designed from the ground up to beat BMW M models and strictly speaking from chassis dynamics alone both are considered superior to their BMW counterparts.

Gamecat235 > mcseanerson 06/03/2015 at 20:51

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I didn’t realize that the new platform was structured for all of them, though it makes sense, and calling the Camaro a non sports car seems really weird. What does that mean for cars like the Audi RS4 (or the M3/4/5)? Nope, based on pedestrian vehicle, must not be a sports car. LOL.

Also, the Mustang / Focus connection doesn’t even make sense. I would love an explanation there.

mcseanerson > Gamecat235 06/03/2015 at 20:56

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Yeah, that’s an interesting one. Most people that diss various cars I think haven’t driven anything they’re dissing very hard. I had a Mazda 3 that was more willing to rotate than my Miata. Can’t tell that to the nonbelievers though.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Milky 06/03/2015 at 21:02

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A hot-hatch can still be a sports car in my book.

RedPir8Roberts > Milky 06/03/2015 at 21:08

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I’m struggling with not calling the MX-6 a sports car, it was at least as fun to drive as the second-gen RX-7 convertible and no one argues that isn’t a sports car. It’s the Japanese Fulvia. Well, without the awesome engine sound and race history. I’ve also heard the Eclipse / Talon were pretty hairy for the day. The Prelude isn’t quite as sporty, to me. I’m not sure where the line is.

Axial > Gamecat235 06/03/2015 at 21:19

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I recall reading somewhere that the new Mustang is a highly chopped up and modified version of the Focus’s C platform and that the result is unique to the Mustang, if not entirely clean-sheet. I can’t seem to find where I read that, so I might be crazy and be confusing something else I read or heard.

Camaro and CTS are both on the Alpha platform; CTS is a [fast] luxury barge. The Alpha platform is also used in a smaller form on the ATS, but the Camaro got the larger, CTS-sized one. And if we talk about the 5th-gen Camaro, it’s based on the Zeta platform...which was also meant originally for full-size sedans like the Caprice and the Commodore, neither of which were necessarily intended to be driving-oriented cars.

As for the WRX, I don’t think racing has anything to do with it. While racing is a sport and you can make that logical connection via the shared terminology, there’s a difference in interpretation of the definition of the word “sport” that has to be considered. A rally car, or any race car, is designed to do one thing: be as fast as possible in the competitive environment it is used. A sports car is designed to provide pleasure to the driver through the invocation and provocation of the driver’s operating skills. It’s about winning, but not against other cars or drivers. It’s about letting the driver win against the car’s and his own limitations. The WRX is an Imprezza, and an Imprezza is not designed to provide driving pleasure. Sure, they’ve tweaked it to do so for the WRX, but it’s got nothing on a platform that was designed to be a sports car from the outset. It also just so happens that the things that make a good sports car also make pretty good race cars, but too much race car and it loses the fun-factor to all but the dedicated psychos.

Now, before anybody brings up the whole “slow car fast” thing, there are brackets for sports cars. The Miata is on the low-speed end, designed to provide pleasure in conditions that won’t necessarily smear you across the track if you mess up. The Corvette is on the high-speed end, pushing the driver to be crazy and really test his mettle.

Milky > RedPir8Roberts 06/03/2015 at 22:04

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Sorry not sorry, if it shares a platform with this its not a sports car.

A Fiesta ST is great to drive, still not sports car. Same goes for the cars you posted.

*IMO. This is the internet, everyone has an opinion.

Milky > Axial 06/03/2015 at 22:09

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I completely agree. I think you got the mustang wrong … but other than that, yea.

Making an econo-box pick up a rear wheel so it rotates doesnt make it a sportscar. Giving a compact luxury car a ton of power doesnt make it a sports car, etc. etc.

Vette, SLK, GTR, Miata, 911 and so on, are made from the ground up to be sports cars.

Axial > Milky 06/03/2015 at 22:12

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Yeah, I had several people tell me they read that the ‘Stang was based on a heavily modified C platform, but I haven’t found anything to corroborate that.

Milky > Axial 06/03/2015 at 22:17

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According to wiki its a modified Lincoln LS/Jag S-type chassis that I’m assuming they’ve just been updating for the Stang. Seeing how Ford has no other RWD cars.

RedPir8Roberts > Milky 06/03/2015 at 22:25

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That’s an interesting way to look at it. If the 626 didn’t exist, then it would be a sports car? I wanted to say there is a good example of a no-questions sports car that shares a platform with something more pedestrian, but I could only think of the Mustang, which shared a platform with the Falcon—but I’d agree with you the Mustang is not a sports car. But the internet came to my aid: The Nissan 350Z shares the FM platform with Inifiniti FX SUV. So—I don’t think it’s a logical distinction—unless the FX is a sports car?

Gamecat235 > Axial 06/03/2015 at 22:30

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I’m on my phone, so I’ll be a bit more brief than that response deserves, but very well said. Excepting the Mustang thing, I largely agree with everything you say.

This seems to allow room for the odd duck, like the M100 Elan, but specify that if it’s purpose, or raison d’etre, is to be an enjoyable, purpose built, performance vehicle and platform then it meets the criteria (which, the M100 is, but, say the Civic type R, ITR, WRX, etc are not). I understand the logic there, and could accept it as a definition as it leaves room for things like the Elan, Morgan, and other weird, but performance focused vehicles. (Though that smart roadster is still a very very weird one to group).

Thanks for the response.

Milky > RedPir8Roberts 06/04/2015 at 09:23

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If the 626 didn’t exist and Mazda wanted to build a sports car they would of built the FD and NA. But the 350z is actually a great example …. and makes my mind hurt because I rather like the FX.

Could argue the Z came first and the others are modified from it …. I don’t know actually. Well I do know this is also on the same chassis and certainly is not sports car.

Milky > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/04/2015 at 09:28

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Well this thing is RWD, 2 door, has a V8 and is fun to slide around. Might as well include it too.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Milky 06/04/2015 at 09:31

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Now you’re just being obtuse. You don’t agree with my definition and that’s fine.

Drop it.

Milky > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 06/04/2015 at 09:42

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Actually not that obtuse when you consider old sports cars are BOF, probably less sophisticated too. And a Silverado is stupid fun to drift around.

…… just sayin’ …..

…. dropping it …..